Whose Car Is It Anyway? - Comments Page 2

Pretty high-handed but isn't this just a progression from all the other software we buy and use every day. Those notices that none of us read when we install software all seem to give us a licence to use the software but no ownership.

It seems to me this horse has truly bolted and we should have been protesting years ago.

The next vehicle I buy I want it without any computer devices. Bet that won't fly very well.

How about getting all that electronics off appliances and cars and go back to the RELIABLE mechanical on off switches or temperature rheostats in ovens , Ac's etc.

Licensing versus ownership, made all the more horrid by big Businesses being successful in the Licensing Game, eg. Microsoft, etc., and the Consumer not being able to fight this type of sale.
However, if you own the software should the owner be responsible for updates that aren't to repair defective software, eg.and algorithm update to improve fuel economy?
If this Licensing Pest gets up and running, then, a project to develop an 'Open Source' Car, funded by Crowd Funding?
Or, maybe, the in next GFC where the Taxpayer becomes the owner of Motor Venicle Companies, we change the Licensing agreement?

I just signed the petition!!! WOW ... What a slap against all car owners and independent car repair shops!!!

I do understand, the importance of maintaining safety and security software. However, I personally would LOVE to cancel out the Air Bags! I have had the Air Bags blow up on me 3 times and the damage to me, was extensive!!! I had my seat belt on, all 3 times and did not move one bit. It was NOT necessary, for the Air Bag to deploy.

Trust me, not all of the safety factors in modern cars, are necessary. I am most worried about the "orange or black" boxes, in the newer cars, which tell the police or anyone, what happened in a car accident or that you were speeding, so on and so forth. To me, this is Big Brother watching you!!!

This is why, I signed the petition and will support EFF.

This will result in you having to take your car to the dealership for any maintenance and repairs at additional costs. Independent mechanics will be unable to work on cars or will have to get a special license from manufacturers and these costs will be carried on to the consumer. In addition, you will not be able to save money by fixing your own car. If they are going to argue that you don't own your car then manufacturers shouldn't charge so much to buy a car since you are actually renting a car and do not physically own it. What if a manufacturer cannot fix a problem with the code but someone else is able to fix the issue. Are we to wait until the manufacturer fixes this code? Will a car become obsolete in 5 years like a lot of electronics and the manufacturer will no longer support your car and software forcing you to "upgrade" to a new car?

Imagine running a background check on yourself(or perhaps a potential employer) only to discover that you are listed as a criminal. I see a lawsuit coming. Could be my retirement nest egg!

Certainly there are some reasons for concern here, but there are also good reasons for some of these restrictions. Next time you are stopped next to someone in a Cummins diesel pickup who dumps coal all over your car (and in your windows) when he pulls away from the light, you'll understand. These are illegal modifications to the circuitry that controls how much unburned fuel can be emitted to the atmosphere. It is the aftermarket computer chip manufacturers who are mostly fighting these regulations. They are technically sold "for off road use only" but the majority of them end up in seriously modified rigs that are obnoxiously overpowered and used on the road only. Does they really need a thousand horsepower to drive around town?

Well, you know what they say: Nothing runs like a deer. But nothing smells like a John either.

Yea, I posted about this about 2 weeks ago... To answer some of the issues brought up:

- Code examination in the case of a warranty claim doesn't work, it's easy to do (you can generate a checksum and see if it matches with what is supposed to be there), but most "programmers" make a copy of the base code so you can quickly set it back, and here the manufacturer's have the same issue that they've always had with enthusiasts: there are some that will modify, then break it, put it back and say "this broke through nothing I did and you need to fix it under warranty."
With the code you could do something like set too much timing, too little fuel, more boost... (all of which will make more power, and might get you better MPG at the same time). It's an age old problem, it's just easier now to hide it with the computer programming rather than having to reverse physical changes

- Kendro wrote "Does they really need a thousand horsepower to drive around town?" (sic)- yes, why not? There's loads of people that will pay big $$$ to have more power. In your example of a diesel, you can make big power by adding fuel though tuning (I own a cummins dodge and have it rigged up with 5 different programs, one of which adds almost 300lb-ft of torque, none "roll coal," that's just a stupid waste of fuel, and I can tell you that the truck is _much_ more pleasant to drive with the 4th and 5th tune (the most and second most powerful tune), _especially_ towing. Though I'm not actually doing it by modifying the factory tune but by intercepting the sensor and actuator signals outside of the PCM and modifying them (I'm doing is not touching the programming that they are trying to protect, but the same can be done by doing that).
Now here is the thing, I get more towing power, I get better MPG AND lower emissions.
Why didn't dodge ship it like that? I'll also kill the transmission and axles sooner (without be being careful I could kill the transmission in much less than the warranty period)... It doesn't matter, it's got 140K miles on it, it's long out of warranty and even if it wasn't I wouldn't say it was dodge's fault that they failed

- As automated/computerized controls become more powerful they can do more things, faster and more simply. If you're used to working on 70's, 80's and 90's vehicles and then go to something built in the last 10 years you'll find that they've actually become MUCH simpler under the hood. What used to be done with mechanical, vacuum and electrical (switches and actuators) means, making for a rats next of controls all over the engine bay is now gone, and it is all done through a few simple sensors and actuators. If you're comfortable with modifying programming a lot of changes/tuning that was simple with pre-'70s cars is again simple.
My "race car" (street car that does see track time) is an '87 model year, that has had most of the original "rats next" stripped and removed (saved over 60# of mess, it's MUCH easier to work on under the hood and make actual engine parts changes) and is being run by an ECM that I built and programmed. It actually has 3 microcontrollers (1- the basic ECM, 2- a separate interface module that allows me extra inputs and PWM outputs for more granular control, 3- another microcontroller similar to the first that has different code controlling a more modern computer controlled transmission), all networked together using CAN Bus (Control Area Network). I connect to all this using a bluetooth module that I modified and integrated into the whole deal, I can change most drivetrain parameters from my laptop or my Android phone from anywhere in the driveway or even in the house. I can change things in 30seconds that would have taken days a few years ago (of course, much like many other people I was hacking the original GM ecm before this), but this setup gives me a more efficient, more powerful, more controllable and more flexible setup than I could have ever had before. And this is the kind of thing modern PCM controls give you on a lot of newer cars. This is also where I'm worried that the goverment will decide to side with the manufacturers, you could also mess up emissions and safety controls just as quickly.

- Obviously I'm against this, but it's not because I'm one of those enthusiasts that some of you don't understand that just needs to go faster (yes, that is one of the thing that drives me to do this, but that's not why I am against this). I AM AGAINST THIS because this is just another move that will stifle innovation in this country. I do not feel that _everyone_ needs to be protected from themselves (and honestly, the price of admission WRT to knowledge is fairly high here that should prevent many of the arguments that people have against allowing this kind of access), but more so, that protection, and the limitations placed on this and similar technologies is stifling creative thinking, and in the long run our country's ability to compete and survive in the modern world. I am continually frustrated with how hard it is to find other people that know some of this stuff in real detail, or how hard it is to find someone that knows how to deal with the things that I haven't figured out, and then even more so, when I want to do some of this work, I can't get parts here, often it's easiest to just get on ebay and have someone send me the small bits of electronics... from China or other overseas sources that do have people that are knowledgeable how to build and modify these things. They're just not made here, designed here, nothing.

As I sit here contemplating what my next car is going to be, I realize that I don't have much use nor care for all of the electronic driver's aides that are stuffed in the new crop of cars. In the extreme case is the 'autonomous' vehicles. It is becoming more apparent that today's younger drivers are in it to solely get from point-A-to-Point-B and don't care one iota what could possibly be "under the hood"! JD Power automotive statistics are beginning to show that the most troublesome/problematic areas are now the electronic modules inside the car.
What I want (but can't get) is a modular car that I can build like I build my own computers with the subsystems that I would like to build from.
Yet, this has always been the difference between a WindowsPC and an ApplePC. And, unfortunately, Apple is winning this competition, as the simpler American cars (such as the muscle cars) are losing to the Earopean/Asian brands that even park your car for you! Apparently, We are not in Kansas anymore!